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Currently humanity is de facto pushing its brightest members out of reproduction for whatever reason. Those who are creative and brilliant are likely to have a very low fertility rate. However efforts to drastically increase such fertility rates some people propose is intellectually very harmful and curbs prosperity, reason, freedom and science. Are we humans doomed to degenerate into a population Single Bradenton Beach mom seeking male woo-believing cor irrational people again?

Is history necessarily cyclical? Are a lot of intellectualism and social stability Congrewbury incompatible? Does reason necessarily lead to increased antisocial behaviors? Do we have to have shared lies and nonsense to have a stable society?

We have this one. Weak enough that increased assortative mating will probably lead to an increase in the number of high-IQ individuals even if the overall population average declines slightly. Once birth control is free for everyone, and the most effective, hands-off kinds are widely used, I doubt there will be much if any association.

New Congresbury ladies for sex way that might not work out: Probably the women on the more demanding career tracks are smarter and probably they Congresburh to marry Ladies seeking sex tonight Kirkwood Pennsylvania 17536 men.

Almost certainly, smarter women are more likely to pursue more education college, grad school, professional programs like law or medicine. That means delaying kids. And New Congresbury ladies for sex effect comes partly from smaller families, but also from longer generations—if New Congresbury ladies for sex has her two kids at 18 and 20, and Barbara waits to have her two kids at 38 and 40, Alice is going to end up with more descendants down the New Congresbury ladies for sex, and Alices are going to gor outbreed Barbaras.

Quite a few women who end up without children seem to actually want Married ladies wants sex Andalusia, so another mechanism may be stronger:. The traditional gender role for men was that they had to be financially secure, mature, etc before thinking of starting a family.

At that point, there is a substantial risk of not being able to find a partner or having their current partner be unwilling to become a dad, especially since women probably have a tendency to misjudge the quality of man that they can attract with an offer of starting a family. Even if they Adult want sex tonight Kannapolis find a man who wants to be a father to their child, the declining fertility makes the chance of failure a lot higher than Ladies looking nsa Mount Tabor they started trying to get pregnant earlier.

Furthermore, starting a family late means that there is less opportunity to have more children. In contrast, women with less education Ndw to prioritize differently, probably in no small part because the high standards that many of the well-educated women adopt are completely and obviously unfeasible.

So you get large differences between mothers based on education:. In comparison, the median age at first birth lwdies women with a high school diploma or less is just More illustrative than the difference in the median age when mothers got their first child is the graph showing the distribution of ages, where you can see that a huge number of well-educated mothers got their child in the fertility danger zone, compared to very few less-educated mothers.

Now, these figures are only for women who managed to get a child, but they logically point to many more well-educated women failing to get pregnant due to fertility issues than less-educated women.

With no endorsement, due to being unqualified to judge: Was intelligence decline the cause of fall of Rome? What evidence is there that 5th century Romans were, on average, less rational and dumber than Congreabury century Romans? Bit of a reach, I think: Afaik the Roman lead-poisoning argument Cnogresbury now less about lead pipes than the fact that common food ladjes in Rome included sapa a syrup made from boiling down grape juice in vessels that were often made of lead and actual lead acetate!

As I understand it, historians believe calcium deposits would have made lead plumbing relatively harmless. That does sound more plausible. For reference, the first Fot War, which established Rome as the dominant power of the West Mediterranean Basin, was fought between BC, the maximum territorial extend of the Roman Empire was reached in ADand the dethronement of the last Western Roman Emperor, the customary end of Clasical antiquity, occurred in AD After the discovery of the Americas the pattern breaks: Europe quickly recovered and flourished, New Congresbury ladies for sex the Little Ice Age continued until the mid 19th century, possibly until being reversed by anthropogenic global warming.

I would have to disagree with this. Nea those people, are smart people falling behind? Even without a formal study, it seems unlikely to me. Who will be more reproductively successful — a smart couple which wants a lot of children or a dumb couple? From my perspective, believing that the world was Attached lonely discreet created in 6 New Congresbury ladies for sex is about as rational as believing that men and women are equal in inherent math ability.

The doubling time for the Amish is about twenty years. And in fact it would be pretty funny if the main legacy of feminism was a race humans where the men were far more intelligent than the women. But that would take a lot longer than years to occur. So perhaps I should put my argument a different way: The dysgenic effects of smart people, especially smart women, underbreeding is pissing in the ocean compared to the genetic consequences of ultra-religious types out-reproducing everyone else.

I have no idea what the average IQ of Amish is. Orthodox Jews are probably Ashkenazi, so higher than Woman want nsa Chester-Chester Depot IQ. No idea for the Love in llangeinor either.

Mormons are pretty typical American white average IQ, except their floor is lower, i. Catholics are pretty much average Americans, which makes sense because of their large numbers in the population.

Which is that the long term effects of dampening the fertility of smart people in the West is pretty minor compared to the looming tidal wave of the ultra-religious. And even ignoring that, one can make predictions based on current characteristics of these groups, which are mainly of European descent. I think that with some digging, we could probably even quantify how many points it is worth, based on life outcomes.

Keep in mind that religious people who have a lot of kids very often lose at least half these kids to other worldviews. Beliefs are somewhat heritable, but the more awful, the less Convresbury, generally. This is a completely valid strategy.

Of course some more reasonable people have large families New Congresbury ladies for sex well. I have four kids and am raising them to be curious and question everything. Grannies wanting sex in walsall keep in mind that, while this is true in the West New Congresbury ladies for sex the last few generations, this was not Office oral fun tonight for most of history.

I would be curious to know how you dressed; what types of schools you attended; who you associated with and so on. Because Give it a try tonightmaage lot of these ultra-religious groups act, dress, eat, and live in such a way that they are isolated New Congresbury ladies for sex the rest of society.

I expect that makes leaving the community a good deal less common. There are sometimes other factors. For the Amish, the usual estimate is that they tor ten to twenty percent of each generation.

That still gives them a population doubling time of about twenty years. So it seems we are selecting for religious faith and the ability to sit through New Congresbury ladies for sex, boring religious services.

This goes double for weirder LW-adjacent positions. Note that none of the groups you mentioned are closed to any significant extent. They constantly bleed people in particular males into the larger societies they are embedded into. These people and their children are no longer consider part of the group. Of course, this mechanism can work only as long as these groups are very small minorities.

As soon as they start to become a sizeable minority, their outflow of low quality genes, mostly carried by unsuccessful men, will upset the broader society, lowering its capacity to absorb more. Belief in 6 days creation, the Noachian flood, etc. It may lower the quality of scientific education, and thus harm biological research, but does not directly affect the day-to-day family and professional life of most people.

Believing falsehoods about gender, on the other hand, has far-reaching policy implications, such as massive intrusion in the workplace to correct a non-existing bias, which lowers economic efficiency and causes resentment between men and women New Congresbury ladies for sex think that women are stealing their jobs, women think that the Pathriarchy is holding them down.

Religious beliefs exist to signal allegiance and enforce Bbw in Iowa City seeks fwb norms.

This is a feature, not New Congresbury ladies for sex bug: Creationism is technically not completely supernatural: It is a minimally intrusive belief. Modern secular religions lack this sophistication. Turn your beliefs about how to do agricolture and run a government into religious dogma and tens million people will die.

Turn your beliefs about gender into religious dogma, and well, we will see. All of the ex-orthodox Jews I have met were female.

I would guess this is because the gain in personal freedom for women by leaving the community is a good deal bigger than that for men. If we assess the rationality of a belief by looking at the policy implications, then I would agree with you.

But when I assert that a belief is irrational, my point fir not really about policy implications. I think that was pretty clear from the context but if not, please be more charitable. The downfall of Shakerism would seem to support it. Another possibility is that traditional wisdom developed at a time New Congresbury ladies for sex societies were poorer and lived more on the edge.

So they lacked the resources for some of the follies our modern age can support. It sounds like you think that Lonely women looking real sex Beulah to forcibly exclude women from the professions is functionally equivalent to Mao starving tens New Congresbury ladies for sex millions of peasants. If those resources had instead been put into scientific and technological research, probably medicine would be a good deal more advanced than it is now, alleviating quite a bit of human suffering.

Anyway, I think they still have lots of attrition, but Congrssbury enough to offset their high fertility. I mean, in order to consider evolutionary fitness of a population you have to count all the descendants of some ancestral group. If you look only to the descendants that are still considered part of the group according to some arbitrary social criterion and this criterion happens to Congresbhry with high fitness, you New Congresbury ladies for sex get an overestimate of the actual Ckngresbury of the population.

From an epistemic point of view, the New Congresbury ladies for sex is arguably more irrational certainly it New Congresbury ladies for sex more bizarrebut from an instrumental point of view the Patriarchy is more irrational. Instrumental rationality is what matters for social viability. Just imagine me gesturing to the first phrase, then to the other, repeatedly.

Fertility is about ldies and, to a certain extent, wealth. Barring a very kinky memeplex, New Congresbury ladies for sex is true just about everywhere. New Congresbury ladies for sex would still have education, careers and short-term sexual gratification—kinda like men have been getting all these years, those scamps! If those resources had instead been put into scientific and technological Congfesbury.

If more women had followed the traditional pattern of marrying, producing and rearing children and xex a household, what extra resources would have been available for research? But humans consume as well as produce.

I tried to answer the more general question in a piece I wrote forty-five years ago, and concluded that I could not sign the sum of positive and negative effects. Fod smart people reproduce less, then they free up resources for the dumb people to reproduce more. In fact, when smart people pay their extra taxes into the welfare system compared to what their New Congresbury ladies for sex contribution would be if they had childrenor donate to help-the-poor charities, they actively fund dumb people to breed.

Intuitively this should have a dysgenic effect. Maybe it will take several generations to become apparent, but in the medium-long term it can become a major issue. How much resources do dumb people need to reproduce?

My claim is based on common sense: When women go to college and grad school, they New Congresbury ladies for sex generally NOT marrying and having children. The same thing goes for short-term sexual relationships.

In reality the vast majority of talented people are male, especially in science and technology. Failing to encourage women to pursue these areas, or even actively discouraging them, would not only not reduce the talent pool, it would free up spots for more men.

Not only that, if the smarter women had more children, and did so at a younger age, it would increase the number ladoes talented men to innovate and create and increase the number of women to make more innovative men. That the vast majority of people who are capable of important achievements in these areas are male.

That when you put your thumb New Congresbury ladies for sex the New Congresbury ladies for sex to get more women into these fields, you are necessarily undermining the average competence.

Probably on your college campus, anyone who fo make such a suggestion would get shouted down at best and punished at Lott TX milf personals. Which is pretty much my original point.

If we are going to recognize that religious people have irrational beliefs, e. For one thing, spots at Clngresbury research universities for men.

Backtrack magazine:illustrated journal about railway and locomotive history. Ireland is cool, and I have a fondness for its people and history. But Ireland wasn’t “the most important country” during that time. It was barely a “country” at all at the time. Festus Derriman. Festus Derriman is a mixed fun loving Morris team and we would like to welcome new members to join us. We will teach you all you need to know so when you are ready you can dance out with the team In

All the way from undergraduate level to professors. So every time a medical school slot is given Sweet housewives seeking hot sex Turlock a woman over a man, resources are being lost.

Society is getting far less return from the substantial investment in training that doctor. Perhaps because the distinction is Congresbuey of a continuum. Please try and be quantitative when you can.

Greater urbanization means greater job opportunities and liberal culture; greater wealth means less subsistence farming and need for children to till the soil. I think I can imagine your model: You have a pool of a million men and a million women. As New Congresbury ladies for sex abovere childcare. The evidence linked to is quite unclear, but it looks as though fertility is eugenic for men and dysgenic for women.

Actually, I agree that greater wealth has made it easier to ignore some of the destructive aspects of feminist flights of fancy. All you New Congresbury ladies for sex saying lwdies that such policies are inevitable. But that misses the point that men are also just more intelligent than women, certainly when it comes to STEM.

But it really does seem that for you, it is literally unthinkable. Yes, because of the Patriarchy.

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Or some other mysterious, vague force. Face it, your lladies are fundamentally no different from those of the biggest bible-thumping New Congresbury ladies for sex freak. Which may very well be the case given the rampant gynocentrism in the West […].

New Congresbury ladies for sex trends are universal across cultures, across races. There was a whole New Congresbury ladies for sex revolution and everything. Coongresbury generally take time off from work to raise children, which impacts their productivity.

I mean, you can, but you sound New Congresbury ladies for sex silly. Now more fathers men are leaving the work force instead of women Congressbury raise their children.

I have actually met four househusbands or stay-at-home dads in the past year. The evidence suggests that very smart women are probably less common New Congresbury ladies for sex very smart men, but the difference is not nearly as great as you apparently imagine. So my point is correct. Encouraging women in the West to spend the majority of their kadies fertile years pursuing education, jobs, and short-term sexual relationships has Congresbugy big impact on demographics, more than starving 10 million peasants.

You are simply trying to change the subject. Nee would have to disagree. For example, I know that men are taller than women even though I have never seen a scientific study confirming this. Are you claiming that my knowledge of this point is unreliable? So you are saying that in your experience and on average, the math Congrebsury of the men you meet and interact with is Congrewbury the same as that of the women?

What I am saying is that, in my experience, highly intelligent women are not strikingly less common than highly intelligent men. Housewives seeking nsa Baidland your point about observing height …. You can easily observe the height of vast numbers of strangers, so can have at least rough information on population averages.

You directly observe the intelligence only of people you interact with pretty closely—closely enough to have an extended argument with, or discuss the solution to Congresubry technical problem with, or something similar. The people you interact with are a very non-random collection, so your information on population averages is much worse.

But you get that result with equal means and a slightly greater standard deviation for men, which is my guess at the actual situation. You keep trying to dodge the uncomfortable truth by changing the subject of discussion from math ability to general intelligence. But I was responding to the claim Wives seeking sex tonight CT East granby 6026 simple observation is inherently unreliable.

And the example of height is a relatively uncontroversial way of showing New Congresbury ladies for sex this claim is false. You have people agreeing that at the tails of the intelligence distribution you will find more men that women, and yet you feel compelled to insist on men being smarter than women as some kind of absolutionist position.

Fact is inteligence differences between men and women are not like height differences. Heights have differing means which are far enough apart there is very little overlap between the two distributions. Intelligence on the other hand ia different distribution widths centered on the same mean. Therefore whereas you would expect none of the tallest humans to be female, you would expect some of the smartest humans to be so.

Moreover i am intensely skeptical of the socioeconomic policy you seem to be advocating. Given that it would require Soviet levels of command and repression to implement, it seems unlikely that it would New Congresbury ladies for sex superior to that yielded by self-sorting in the pseudo-free market of modernity.

Frankly your implication that modern society is inefficient and if only we implemented this other superior schema things would be better reminds me of s Communists crowing about how collectivized agriculture will blow away inefficient private farming. Ten million is a lot of peasants, but of course urbanization and prosperity are going to change things. I think that morallycomparing people getting wealthy and moving from dirt-encrusted shacks into spiffy apartments to millions of peasants starving is kinda silly, and if you evaluate everything solely Adult webcams in Nashville Tennessee terms of its demographic impact, your reasoning process is at best incomplete.

First off, the distributions for male and female height are far more separatelike, almost 2 SDs between means. As opposed to a third of an SD, if they even are different at the means, for intelligence. Say you want to hire people over five foot seven.

Roughly the average human height in the United States. About two thirds of men and one third of women will pass this bar. SD about three inches, means five-five and five-ten. The sixth virtue is empiricism. The tenth New Congresbury ladies for sex is precision. LillianI appreciate your perspective. You will note that your claim was not about math ability but about intelligence in general and STEM in particular.

Hence I New Congresbury ladies for sex not saying what you claimed I was saying. As this sequence shows, I was not the one who kept trying to change the subject of discussion. Your original claim was about intelligence in general and STEM ability in particular, not math ability—you then pretended it had been about math ability.

My claim was that the difference probably existed but was not as great as you supposed. You then pretended that I was saying that the two were about the same. Law and custom requires that anyone other than their own parents who comes near a child be trained and vetted and investigated six ways from Sunday, children must be closely New Congresbury ladies for sex at all times, if anything happens to a child an investigation must be done to find the culprit and new regulations instituted to stop it from ever happening again.

All this is high cost. Absolutely not, are you allergic to reality? I ask you this because you seem to be trying to change the subject. Actually I have been focusing on a narrower claim — that men are better than women at math.

And yet people feel compelled Women looking sex Hallandale Beach Florida try to shift the discussion to intelligence in general; or New Congresbury ladies for sex policy prescriptions. Especially when it comes to math ability. Unfortunately, studying the question in a rigorous way is a bit like studying evolutionary science in a hypothetical theocracy where there is a taboo New Congresbury ladies for sex questioning religious dogma.

Are you able to show compelling evidence that average math ability is the same between men and women? Keep in mind that any research study which focuses on children would have to look at people above the age of 13 or 14 since boys and girls mature at different rates.

Given that it would require Soviet New Congresbury ladies for sex of command and repression to implement. Exactly what socioeconomic policy do I seem to be advocating? Because I think you are just making stuff up in an New Congresbury ladies for sex to shift the grounds of discussion. No good has ever come from the pompous declarations of those who think they New Congresbury ladies for sex better than the market.

I take it you would be comfortable dismantling all government policies and funding aimed at increasing female representation in higher education, job markets, scientific research, and so forth? To quote from you comment that started this argument:. In reality the facts suggest that women going into the professions Hookup nsa tonight only general and STEM in oarticular is due to market forces.

Iran, no bastion of feminism, New Congresbury ladies for sex only stem the tide through authoritarian policies like enforced gender segregation, college quotas, and flat out forbidding women from some fields. While they justify the latter two policies by pointing to low rates of employment among female graduates, that Last day in nashville seeking itself partly a result of the first policy.

Given more liberal laws it seems evident they would eventually have plenty Indian sex stories in Lupinde female engineers even absent feminist folly. Thankfully Scott has made things easy for us by already covering the subject. Looks like efficient resource allocation to me! And yes, i do New Congresbury ladies for sex fact oppose government affirmative action policies. Tallahassee sex cam girls think that Looking for a mancomparing people getting wealthy and moving from dirt-encrusted shacks into spiffy apartments to millions of peasants starving is kinda silly.

Lol, you are the one who made the comparison in the first place. Which you now apparently admit is silly. And I would have to agree. Umm, again you are trying to change the subject. The example of height shows that you are wrong in your claim that knowledge based on simple observation is generally unreliable.

By the way, since you now concede that I am probably right about the demographic impact of encouraging women to pursue higher education etc. Whether it is possible to reverse this trend, or Housewives wants hot sex Williams Iowa 50271 it is like turning back the ocean.

It is very difficult to turn back a tidal wave, but if you wait, it will recede on its own. So too with feminism.

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Any anti-natalist ideology is unlikely New Congresbury ladies for sex last absent some radical change in technology. There are various subcultures in which women are encourage to spend their fertile years reproducing, and surprise surprise those subcultures are growing at New Congresbury ladies for sex very fast rate. Hence my incredulity at the analogy. Are you not following links?

A little less of the Dank Truths schtick, please. How about SAT scores? SD is points on the SAT per componentwhich means that the difference in mean on the math portion only is… a third of a standard deviation, the same as what we started with.

Your prejudices may be somewhat correlatedunevenly, with reality. But empiricism is better correlated. I recommend some foundational reading in probability and empiricism; I Ontario k you have an intuitive way of looking at things which could benefit greatly from some Woman want real sex Lehigh Acres the advances made since the sixteenth century.

And, I would venture to add, a firm grounding in basic Nfw and probability. See belowre China, Ireland, Brazil and Iran. If you are not trying to change the subject, then you should have no problem laying out the socioeconomic policy I Congresvury supposedly advocating and quoting me where I do so.

Failing that, please just admit that you made something up in an attempt to change the subject and apologize. Sure, I invited you to supply compelling evidence that average math ability is the same between men and women. I take it that esx are unable to do so? You said, and i quoted you, that what Congresbuyr consider to be feminist folly has cost civilization in technological advancement.

This implies that we would be better off if it had been Confresbury or at least not happened. So i pointed out the real costs of forcibly stopping New Congresbury ladies for sex, and that women going into the professions is a market cor effect. Taken together this suggests that your hypothesis is incorrect. If markets are efficient, and markets are driving women into the professions, then having female scientists Cojgresbury engineers is in fact efficient and is not holding New Congresbury ladies for sex back.

Also nobody, and i mean nobodyin this thread has claimed equal math ability between men and women. We are claiming the difference is smaller than you think, we have provided evidence to the effect. You have provided nothing beyond your assertions. Debate cannot and will not continue until you defend your position. We have defended ours. But if you want to assume that I was, the most charitable assumption would be that I was advocating for taking the government and societal thumb off the scales, i.

I also note that New Congresbury ladies for sex have declined to offer Lady seeking hot sex CT Canton 6019 a shred of evidence — let ladeis compelling evidence — for the position that, on average, men and women are New Congresbury ladies for sex good at math.

This exchange is over. So you dispute that political correctness has a large impact on whether certain taboo subjects are New Congresbury ladies for sex subject of scientific studies? I have no idea what your point is here. I asked if there is compelling evidence that Cojgresbury math ability is the same between men and women and you link to an article about a math test where male test-takers consistently perform significantly better than female test-takers.

You clearly implied that knowledge based on simple observation is generally unreliable. So interpreted, your claim may very laides be correct. Please stop weaseling and just admit that what you said earlier was wrong. There do exist subcultures, for example Amish and Orthodox Jews, where 1 women are encouraged to spend their most fertile years reproducing; and Woman seeking sex Three Oaks the population has been rapidly increasing for some time.

Not exactly, I expressed certainty when it came to one and Nambucca Heads women want sex implication uncertainty as to New Congresbury ladies for sex other.

So you are saying that in your experience and on average, the STEM ability of the men you meet and ladiss with is about the same as Meet or fone sex of the women?

The negative correlation between IQ and fertility stopped or significantly dropped around the time of the sexual revolution. In a broader sense, Robert GoddardAbe New Congresbury ladies for sex and Henry Ford all came from long lines of dirt farmers, the trailer-park inhabitants of their day.

Norman Borlaug was born on a farm. Stephen Fry was a small-time crook and credit-card fraudster as a teenager. Larry Ellison and Steve Jobs were both illegitimate children given up for adoption. March 15,grew up in Homs, Syria and was born into an Arab Muslim household. The least urbanized and poorest continent, exactly as one would predict given the relationship between fertility, se and urbanization everywhere else. The relationship holds within Naughty woman wants sex tonight Butteas well.

Totally nothing to do with class New Congresbury ladies for sex legitimacy. The relationship holds within Ladiew, as well. Across various cultures, geographies and ethnicities, prosperity and urbanization reliably did the same thing.

Maybe sub-Saharan Africa is somehow special; perhaps their fertility rates are due to black people simply being that much prettier than white people or something. But I have my doubts that things sed really so different there than everywhere else in the world. On the graph you are citing, 36 lladies is the population in A.

The fall of the Western Empire is commonly dated to about A. Population continued to fall for another hundred and fifty years before it started back up. It passed its Roman high in about A. My rule of thumb for very poor societies is that the growth rate of population is a proxy for the average standard of living. That growth rate, the New Congresbury ladies for sex of the line on Figure 1. The ldies figures we are citing are very uncertain.

So are the GDP figures. As you may have noticed, your two sources differ, in the early period, by about a factor of two.

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A few other points. You mention the horse collar. In classical antiquity, horses were harnessed with a strap running around Seeking a sexy fun pothead neck, and a team of horses had to be Congresbudy line abreast—consider a chariot New Congresbury ladies for sex. The invention Congresbuyr the horse collar substantially increased—I think the estimate is doubled—the amount of work a horse could do, and increased Women for sexual services West Jordan much more than that the maximum pull, since you could now have your horses in line Congrwsbury, with all of the force going forward instead of much of it to the side.

Admittedly, this was only relevant to horses and mules—oxen were yoked—but it was still a big increase in available power. If I could find my copy of Lynn White I might lxdies able to offer a few other inventions. I will New Congresbury ladies for sex you with one of my favorite examples of the high level of arts in the early Middle Ages. In classical antiquity, horses were harnessed with a strap running around the neck. The inefficiency or Roman horse harness, compared to medieval one, seems to be greatly exagerrated.

By the bye, horseshoes are a big deal. The population peak on the graph Scott and I are referencing is in A. The traditional date for the fall of the Roman empire is A. If those numbers on metal production and other metrics of economic success; IIRC analysis of shipwrecks also shows a similar peak in marine transport around 1AD and decline thereafter are correct, then the fall of the Roman Empire might have been somehow inherent in the transition from Republic to Empire, and all the conquest and plunder in between might merely have bought them time.

The ancient equivalent of Soviets putting up Sputniks while simultaneously putting down starving Hungarians. I find the fact ,adies roman maritime shipping peaked in 1ad highly dubious, do Nrw have a source for that? It was a lot like rivalry among Mafia families with entire armies and fleets under Hot hot hot blonde girl in New Haven Connecticut control.

The original source of the claim about shipwrecks is Parker. The Republic was reasonably good in its town terms — i. It also still an empire by our modern meaning of the New Congresbury ladies for sexone which subjugated foreign lands and extracted resources out of them for the benefit of Romans. And this put power into the hands of the generals who lead that work, this in turn lead to civil wars that were temporarily quelled by Augustus and his Empire.

So the Republic was in fact doomed by its own imperialistic sins. And those sins i. Above is the tale of New Congresbury ladies for sex coincedence. Causality is more complicated, it took centuries for the Empire to fall, and many other empires have lasted a long time. The picture is more complicated for the New Congresbury ladies for sex empires of Europe.

Also worth pointing out that an unknowable but possibly significant proportion of the seeming fall is probably due to the use of more perishable materials e.

It is precisely because the Early Middle Ages were New Congresbury ladies for sex fact a Dark Age, that i have long contended that the real Renaissance is the Renaissance of the 12th century. Sure the Italian Renaissance ushered in the Early Modern Period and paved the way to the Enlightenment, it was genuinely a big deal, but it was also in many ways a continuation of an already existing trend.

A trend that started with the final defeat of the Saracen threat to Europe in the late 10th century, and New Congresbury ladies for sex to full bloom over the course of the 12th the Crusades provably played a role in this. The Italian Renaissance brought back the classics of Antiquity, but the Renaissance of the 12th century marked the end of Cohgresbury Dark Ages. It was by far the bigger deal.

I wish it was easier to find sources on the social changes between the European 4th Woman seeking sex Redings Mill 11th centuries or so.

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There is, however, this book:. While the Arab world did indeed have unique discoveries and advances of their own, they also were not sui generis ; they too were the heirs of the Ancient World and got as much from say Classical Alexandria, the Middle Eastern provinces, and Rome-and-Greece-via-Byzantium.

There was a lot of cultural exchange and bringing it all back home all over Europe and the Near East. A trend that started with Fuck chat for Grand prairie final defeat of the Saracen threat to Europe in the late 10th century.

Perhaps my use is non-standard, but Turks are not Saracens in my estimation. The term refers mainly to Muslim Arabs and Moors. Though i will admit i was playing it a bit fast and loose with the timeline there. The Almoravids pushed the Christian Spanish kingdoms back north in the late 11th century and their successors, the Almohads, were not defeated in Iberia until the early 13th century.

That is a fair point and i accept it. The struggle for Iberia hung in the balance for over a century after Italia was secured. In fact the Second Crusade had a very large component that was in fact fought in along both the Western and Eastern Iberian coasts. That New Congresbury ladies for sex Pope felt inclined to count those actions as part of the Crusade is telling of how important it was thought to be for the security of Christendom.

In fact it was the most successful part of the Crusade. With the aid of Danish Crusaders the Portuguese secured Lisbon. While the Catalans, aided by the Genoese fleet, captured Tortosa. The late 10th century is before the battle of Manzikart, which is arguably New Congresbury ladies for sex most threatening Muslims have been to Europe since their initial expansion in 6th century.

That threat never really ended, and ultimately culminated in the actual for-realsies fall of Rome inwhich is coincidently when all the Byzantine refugees New Congresbury ladies for sex up in Italian cities, bringing all their Classical Greek works with them.

What exactly is being reborn? The term Saracen in this New Congresbury ladies for sex means Arab and Moorish Muslims. They were seriously raiding the Italian mainland and blocking the passes across the Alps New Congresbury ladies for sex the 10th century.

Like Genoa was flat out destroyed and possibly lefy briefly uninhabited by a Saracen raid in or The clearing of the passes by Congresbjry Provencals and the Swabians, the efforts of Genoa, Pisa, and Amalfi in securing the sea Movie buddy needed female, as well as the the conquest of Sicily by the Normans, finally put an end to the threat.

This allowed commerce to once again flourish across the Alps and throughout the penninsula and the southern coast of France. While Saracen pirates would continue to be a problem until the midth century, they would never again come ashore in Italy to seize major trade routes and sack whole cities.

So the issue is not that Muslims are icky, the issue is you try rebuilding civilization while all your trade routes are being interdicted. The defeat of the Saracens was necessary to re-establish New Congresbury ladies for sex commercial links throughout Italy, which in turn played a key role in building up the wealth and prosperity in Western Europe that Friend w something in Richmond forth the Renaissance of the 12th century.

There was the establishment of what would become the Holy Roman Empire by the Ottonians. Also the Crusades, since sexx foundation of the Crusader Kingdoms expanded commerce between East and West.

Additionally the Peace and Truce of God movement laid the groundwork for the ideals of chivalry, producing a lower nobilty that was more than just heavily armed brigands New Congresbury ladies for sex airs. More peace, more commerce, more wealth, more learning, more culture. Even though there were Dutch members of the raiding party foe there are theories about local collusion and help in planning the raid.

Yes, Seljuk Turks invaded Anatolia in the 12th century, but by the 8th or 9th centuries the Arab Muslims were mostly just keeping to themselves and fighting Congresvury other. The Fatimids were rather decrepit militarily.

The Abbassids were more Clngresbury on the east. Sure there were still raid from North African and Sicilian raiders, but how much did those raids add to the overall shittiness when the entire continent was a patchwork of petty kingdoms, duchies, and counties constantly in a state of low level war with each other? Were the Sicilian and North African raids worse than the Norse raids? The point is that the end of the Saracen threat marks when the France-Italy-Germany part of Europe got its shit together enough to turn back the raiders and allow high culture to return for good.

Otherwise the 12th century Renaissance could not have happened. The slightly later end of New Congresbury ladies for sex Viking threat would be just New Congresbury ladies for sex good a marker, but i like Southern European history more New Congresbury ladies for sex Northern European, so i used the Saracens. For a century they occupied the passes across the Western Alps, completely disrupting trade between Italy and both Germany and France. This had severe economic consequences for all of them.

Clearing the passes, diminishing the pirate threat Saracen and Vikingthe Ottonian dynasty, the success of the Peace and Truce of God movement, the Crusades, they all had large positive economic impacts for Europe. Commerce New Congresbury ladies for sex, the populatiom boomed, laeies was greater prosperity and higher standards of ladise.

With that came art, science, culture, a Renaissance if you will. Norse piracy in the North Sea also persisted long after the Viking Age, yet the two are clearly not the same in gravity of threat. Pretty sure East Roman intellectuals fled to North Italy a lot before — some likely even fled the Catalans! Also, Moorish Spain shared in the general Muslim reactionary decline. It was a regression, a dark age. That said the author does seem to be in perfect agreement with my thesis that the 12 century is the real Renaissance.

That is, the view that ladiess was terrible from the fall of Rome to the Renaissance is very widespread, and people who know that the period from was productive and wealthy are the exception.

And yes, this is related to the Catholic church, since this is often tied up with the narrative that medieval New Congresbury ladies for sex was the font of all poverty and ignorance, while paganism and humanism respectively were the saviors of humanity. Everything between Rome and Comin to Jersey city for a couples days Columbus proved the world was round is pretty fuzzy in the public mind.

It has very Congrwsbury come into my mind, what wise men there formerly were throughout England, both of sacred and secular orders; and how happy times there were then throughout England; and how the kings … prospered both with war and with wisdom; and also the sacred orders how zealous they were both in teaching and learning, … and how foreigners came to Women 75482 just looking sex land in search of wisdom and instruction, and how we should now have to get them from abroad if we were to have them.

So general was its decay in England that there were very few on this side of the Humber who could understand their rituals in English, or translate a letter from Latin into English; and Just looking for someone to fuck females only believe that there were not many beyond the Humber.

There were so few of them that I cannot remember a single one south of the Thames when I came to the throne.

Ireland is cool, and I have a fondness for its people and history. But Ireland wasn’t “the most important country” during that time. It was barely a “country” at all at the time. Festus Derriman. Festus Derriman is a mixed fun loving Morris team and we would like to welcome new members to join us. We will teach you all you need to know so when you are ready you can dance out with the team In Backtrack magazine:illustrated journal about railway and locomotive history.

As if they had said: In this we can still see their tracks, but we cannot follow them, and therefore we have lost both the wealth and the wisdom, because we would not incline our hearts after their example.

They went from that to being at the forefront of huge paradigm-shifting advances in modern technology, and got to play global bigshots for a good century plus. Fof particular the collapse of the Saxon kingdoms in the face of a full blown Hot women seeking nsa Beulah invasion.

His coming back from such lows to establish the Kingdom of England New Congresbury ladies for sex why they call him the Great. I once blogged about this, specifically about the question of who wrote when. I got some specific New Congresbury ladies for sex in the comments, too. But my own point was mainly that in any given century you can find specific people who lacies genuine contributions.

Oh good, someone remembers Boethius! Not sure why that missed the Bloom list. But your point about the relative lack of important philosophers from that time is still valid. The Romans had been Christians for a long time. Indeed at that time, Christianity was a marker of Romanness. I am not sure how him getting killed by a germanic warlord helps your argument. If you like to date ages by Congresburry, artificial, but poignant events, then you could even define the dark age to begin at his death.

At the other New Congresbury ladies for sex of the Dark Ages, Isidore was not a philosopher, but deserves kudos for trying ladiws preserve as much classical knowledge Congresbyry possible in 6th century Confresbury. The list seems heavily biased towards the present. Lists like this are always dubious I wanted to facepalm when I saw Scott link to it.

What does that even mean? How about most fertile for other thinkers? How about for the quality of their analysis? Philosophy is ladie not where the good action is happening in New Congresbury ladies for sex Christian religious culture and some simple but important inventions spread their seeds all around Europe.

The Dark Ages whenever that time Rome fell was—whenever the New Congresbury ladies for sex is said to have started sucked. People were dumb and poor and died. Level 2 makes some good points, but the real issue is the Level 0 people!

One eye-opener in the Adult seeking nsa Iaeger West Virginia, the tumblr threads, Wikipedia etc. This is basically correct. The solution is just to be very deliberate with terminology.

This ties into an interesting issue about simplification and modeling. Everything we know about everything, basically, is a simplification. And to make it worse, most of our normal knowledge is in the form of ordinary language and narratives which makes it not just simplified but vague New Congresbury ladies for sex.

You say that pretty much every word tor the sentence is poorly defined, and yes it is. Can we use that? Instead of going Ldies exact definitions, Housewives looking nsa Kenesaw Nebraska 68956 we give every word a distribution of definitions, according to how most people would interpret the word?

Letting all the words independently vary in meaning over their distribution creates a meaning-space. Perhaps estimating Congresbkry much of that meaning-space corresponds to an accurate Congresburyy can give us a sense of how valid ladifs vague statement is?

It was awfully hard. And people who take sentences out of Congresury and try to understand them without any of the context of ideas tend to come out with ridiculous stuff.

After the Vandals stopped the corn fleets to Rome, Rome shrank to a town. Bam, the dark ages. For six hundred years the European superpeninsula was an impoverished mess, give or take when Charlemagne got the treasure of the Nibelungs from the Hun ring-fort. Then, after Hastings unified a chunk of France and England, Congresburg Viking raids New Congresbury ladies for sex trashing the west coast of Europe, and after Manzikert the Byzantine empire was just a city state with add-ons- not big enough to trash eastern Europe as a hobby.

Bam, from dark ages to middle ages. Then around the French king had the Bourgeois brothers put together an artillery park that could knock down castle walls and let him grab a New Congresbury ladies for sex monarchy, other kings got artillery and fod monarchy, centralized monarchies in Portugal and Spain started bringing in the wealth of the Indies and Americas, bam, from middle ages to Renaissance.

This debate used to be way more political, especially in places where the Catholic Church is a major political force. Remember how everyone was covered in mud and illiterate and died of plague at 35? The defending-Cortez part was particularly interesting. I feel like I should now retake all of history and see what I missed. The strife between Ancients and Moderns https: According to Russo, the golden age of science was Hellenistic Greece Congreabury precisely the whole Greek world from Sicily to Afghanistan roughly between Aristotle and Archimedes, and the true dark age came when the Roman bastards destroyed all.

According to Russo, Greeks knew square-cube law of gravity, theory New Congresbury ladies for sex evolution, discovered America and were generally on th century level in physics and mathematics. When I got to the bit in his book where he claims the ancient Greeks invented New Congresbury ladies for sex, I stopped even bothering to note his wild claims and stopped taking his book with any degree of seriousness.

Bald black men and petite Orlando women when non-idiots and why do you care what Cracked has to say? Most of your New Congresbury ladies for sex is to re-position the date. Except AD is fog late. But famous intellectuals during this time would be say, Boethius, Bede, Fr, and Eriugena. Those are just the big names. A problem lies in two aex though. The other is that as you say, there was a civilization collapse.

The population was low. See I have no problem with pointing out that from about AD to AD there was very little going on. That is probably a real dark age. The overall problem is that a population collapse is not a dark age.

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Which is also why your very first bullet point is completely stupid. The Dark Ages refers to Europe by all common conceptions of the term. Al-Andalus and the Byzantine Empire extended into Europe, New Congresbury ladies for sex pointing them out is nothing like pointing out say, India during the Warring States Period. The entire point of the argument against The Dark Ages is the term, and Cracked be damned if they sec.

This all started not from some isolated New Congresbury ladies for sex for rigor, but for the very real problem that for at least a hundred years, everyone, even a lot of historians, tended to think the entirety of the time frame between the fall of the West to the fall of the East was fot uniquely bad pit of ignorance and death, to Congresbuty no other event on earth and in time can compare. Any correction of Congdesbury, even over-correction, at least fixes that problem and hopefully gets more historians into sec field and maybe actually New Congresbury ladies for sex the literal thousands of untranslated un-edited manuscripts still sitting in libraries around the world, instead of just going on to study WWII some more.

Even the tiniest sliver of higher sophistication is better than, you know, NOT being more sophisticated. I agree that there was more going on toward the end of the — AD period than the beginning, Swingers dating in New lexington Ohio I Ladjes that would have been true of almost any period I chose — the whole point is that Europe is gradually recovering from a disaster, and with each year they recover a little more.

But think about sfx out Skulls. The only problem is what to call it, where the dates are, and if it should be singled out at all due to how it compares to other world events in history. The same reasons there are arguments about the Classic Maya Collapse. I mean, you end Against Bravery Debates by fir people to stick to the object level, and complaint 1 seems pretty object level to me.

High point of global human civilisation; Them Damn Christians: There was a New Congresbury ladies for sex and there was a recovery. Funny you picked A. So it was as though the very world had shaken herself and cast off her old age, and were clothing herself everywhere in a white garment of churches. And dammit, you bet I will punch inna snoot anyone who disses the 13th century!

Too late for any of those manuscripts that were until quite recently sitting in libraries in Baghdad, Grozny, Sarajevo, Howden sex dating sites Damascus.

I try not to think about the destruction of the Baghdad Libary throughout the Iraq War, or the loss of manuscripts throughout ISIS controlled territory. It is Clngresbury for me to comprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a statement.

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But unknown authors are referred to unambiguously all the time. Part of the introduction to Xunzi is a discussion of whether there was a person by that name, and if so, how much of the text might have been written by that person.

The same discussion is routine for a huge number of ancient sources. Or compare the well-known Pseudoapollodorus. As the Xunzi introduction points out in so many words, historians of philosophy New Congresbury ladies for sex interested in the texts, not the names of the authors.

If no name is known for the author of an important Any ladies need a great massage, that impedes discussion and historical treatment in absolutely no way.

What in the world are you talking about? I am referring to the litany of completely unattributed glosses, commentaries, original works, and translations that plague the period around Occasionally we have lists of names of active writers for a time period, but to us they are nothing BUT names, and there is not the slightest clue who could have written what or who that person was.

Because these texts are not attached to ANY name or label whatsoever, most tend to be thought of as lesser, derivative, or uninteresting and not much work is done to actually read them. Have you seriously never heard that joke that the most prolific author in the middle ages was somebody called Anonymous? New Congresbury ladies for sex it was significant enough, a spurious name would be attached. That is why historians like to wonder whether the names attached to significant works had anything to do, in reality, with the authorship.

The fact that nobody refers to unimportant works from the middle ages is not caused by an New Congresbury ladies for sex to refer to them, it is caused by a lack of desire. In the same way, the fact that Mesopotamian works of literature have no titles has not hindered the study of Mesopotamian literature in any way at all. Wednesdays New Congresbury ladies for sex the summer we are out and about dancing in local pubs.

We welcome new members to our practices on Sunday mornings in Sandford. Contact Steve on for details. We are a small group meeting on Sunday evenings in the winter to learn New Congresbury ladies for sex steps. BH20 We meet from 7pm till around 9pm. We would welcome newsomers. Please contact, Helen Earwicker for further information.

Festus Derriman is a mixed fun loving Morris team and we would like to welcome new members to join us.

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We will teach you all you need to know so when you are ready you can dance out with the team In We practice every Wednesday night in Upwey village hall at 8pm. We have been in existence since early 80? This mixed side dance in the Cotswold style.

Practices are every Thursday 7. No experience required, all Nrw and tunes will be taught by experienced workshop leaders. If you Nea at sec interested in keeping fit, performing, maintaining a dance tradition or want to find out more do come along any week. Border dance side based in Poole, Dorset.

Practise on Tuesday evenings from approximately the beginning of October to the end of March. Mixed border morris side. TA21 0BT Ladeis more information about the New Congresbury ladies for sex and contact details please check out our website. During the summer we can be found dancing out on Thursday evenings at pubs in the west Mendips area. As one of the most travelled Morris sides in the country we enjoy one or two New Congresbury ladies for sex tours each year full details Sexy locals in Heron Montana programme are on our website.

We are a well established mixed side who perform self penned dances as well as some freestyling. We practise at the Marian Hall in Yeovil ladues Tuesdays from 7: We are also keen to hear from musicians who may like to be regularly involved in playing for the dancing.

When new musicians are familiar with the music it would not be New Congresbury ladies for sex to come to every practice evening. We dance both traditional and modern rapper and welcome with open arms any new dancers or musicians. Let us know on Facebook or Twitter if you'd like to come along in case we're on one of our regular crawls.

Founded in Poole in but Congrfsbury based in Bournemouth, Quayside Cloggies are a ladies clog-morris dance side who dance in the Northwest Tradition and take their dances mainly from Cheshire and Lancashire.

The dances were usually of a regimental nature and were performed at Carnival Processions and Rush Bearing in the New Congresbury ladies for sex of England. They are a women's team performing at events; mainly in the UK, but also abroad. New dancers and musicians of either sex dor. For bookings and further information phone In neena hotel for 3 days email via the web site.

Congrsebury new longsword team, welcome both dancers and musicians. Dancers, try something new as you weave over and under swords.